Current Dress Regs

[rmc_wannabe]

Another example is blousing. The actual regs say it is still mandatory, but the army CWO posted a photo of someone wearing ankle boots that are too low to properly blouse, and troops took that to mean it wasn't required any more.

Exactly. Give clear direction one way or the other. If not, be prepared for shades of grey and having to constantly clarify the "what about" askholes every other day.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I would love to hear what happened in JRTC.

Third hand info, take it for what you will. The American LOs (one of whom is a friend of mine) at ACTA got a very pointed phone call coming from the Command Sergeant Major at Fort Johnson asking if it was a prank that there were Canadian "soldiers" walking around their base looking like absolute bags. The U.S. was considering asking them to withdraw from the exercise.

Once the 3 R22eR CoC was engaged, they explained the new regs and asked them to just wait until they commenced trg. They performed extremely well, and the U.S. was like "ok, nevermind then. Proceed."

Definitely weighs heavy on the "See? Only operational excellence is important. Dress doesn't matter!" Side... but my counter to that is "they almost didnt get to demonstrate that operational excellence because they made a horrible first impression based on appearances."

 

[Halifax Tar]

Third hand info, take it for what you will. The American LOs (one of whom is a friend of mine) at ACTA got a very pointed phone call coming from the Command Sergeant Major at Fort Johnson asking if it was a prank that there were Canadian "soldiers" walking around their base looking like absolute bags. The U.S. was considering asking them to withdraw from the exercise.

Once the 3 R22eR CoC was engaged, they explained the new regs and asked them to just wait until they commenced trg. They performed extremely well, and the U.S. was like "ok, nevermind then. Proceed."

Definitely weighs heavy on the "See? Only operational excellence is important. Dress doesn't matter!" Side... but my counter to that is "they almost didnt get to demonstrate that operational excellence because they made a horrible first impression based on appearances."

I mean the west has been badly bloodied (beaten ?) a few times by guys who run around in man jammies and rags and with rusty AKs. Dress and deportment is no predictor of fighting prowess.

But part of being in a professional force is D&D IMHO.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ofcourse that would be your take away.

Earings my dude, that usually prompts others to grab a bathroom break after inspection lol.

I'm not kink shaming you buddy

Inspections are super important; and so is crushing people who are insudordinate and fail them.

Naw like you I'm a fan of clear directions. We need that because of the idiots we work with who push the envelope to see what they can get away with. Example - homeless looking zz top beards.

We had pretty wide arcs with what could have been a great gentlemens understanding. Nope.

 

[Remius]

I'm not kink shaming you buddy

Inspections are super important; and so is crushing people who are insudordinate and fail them.

Naw like you I'm a fan of clear directions. We need that because of the idiots we work with who push the envelope to see what they can get away with. Example - homeless looking zz top beards.

We had pretty wide arcs with what could have been a great gentlemens understanding. Nope.

That’s the mistake I made when this was introduced. I assumed that people would still at least be well put together and groomed.

When the update comes out I am sure there will be lamentations about lack of inclusion, final nails in coffins etc

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I mean the west has been badly bloodied (beaten ?) a few times by guys who run around in man jammies and rags and with rusty AKs. Dress and deportment is no predictor of fighting prowess.

I don't disagree. There's something to say about fighting spirit, fitness, and ingenuity.

That said, when it comes to professional courtesy amongst professional militaries:

But part of being in a professional force is D&D IMHO.

Bingo.

You have to "look the part" as much as you have to perform it. That includes being properly dressed, fit to fight, and properly equipped. It's a trifecta we have neglected for far too long.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I mean the west has been badly bloodied (beaten ?) a few times by guys who run around in man jammies and rags and with rusty AKs.

Only because our hands are tied with rules.

Dress and deportment is no predictor of fighting prowess.

Agreed.

I find it unfortunate when leaders people in positions of authority let their pursuit of dress and deportment replace leadership principals.

 

[markppcli]

I'm not kink shaming you buddy

Inspections are super important; and so is crushing people who are insudordinate and fail them.

Naw like you I'm a fan of clear directions. We need that because of the idiots we work with who push the envelope to see what they can get away with. Example - homeless looking zz top beards.

We had pretty wide arcs with what could have been a great gentlemens understanding. Nope.

That’s precisely what I mean when I say we had a behave like grown ups and look professional policy, we just can’t trust our people to do that clearly.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I find it unfortunate when leaders people in positions of authority let their pursuit of dress and deportment replace leadership principals.

There is definitely a balance in both that we have forsaken as an "all or nothing" binary choice.

If you only give a shit about looking parade ready, you're overlooking professional competency and operational effectiveness.

Similarly, if you look like you give zero fucks about the small stuff like dress, appearance, grooming, protocol, and administration because you're "too focused on operating" (whatever the hell that means); you discredit yourself as someone who can't be bothered to do the simple stuff right. That can either mean someone is going to call your bluff to "prove it" or brush you off as a poser.

Being well turned out and being able to excell in ALL facets of military operations (yes, that DOES include looking smart while bashing the square for the public to see) are both equally important in gaining clout. Its folly to think its one or the other.

 

[SupersonicMax]

That’s precisely what I mean when I say we had a behave like grown ups and look professional policy, we just can’t trust our people to do that clearly.

With leadership, we can absolutely trust our people to do that clearly. When someone looks like a homeless person, we take them aside and tell them. Never had issues doing that.

You have to "look the part" as much as you have to perform it. That includes being properly dressed, fit to fight, and properly equipped. It's a trifecta we have neglected for far too long.

I can tell you that if you saw me on the street that you wouldn’t associate me to being a fighter pilot: I don’t « look the part. ». Somehow, I managed to have a pretty successful career so far.

Exactly. Give clear direction one way or the other. If not, be prepared for shades of grey and having to constantly clarify the "what about" askholes every other day.

That’s a pretty cop out answer for an officer. I 100% expect the officers serving in my unit to explain the why to people, including to those trying to exploit the grey. I encourage everyone to challenge the institution so that frank discussions can happen.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's all a very minor walk back. Sticking with natural colors and just keeping your hair tidy and clean looking.

And it's exactly what should have been the original orders.

I think back to that picture of an RCAF officer getting some sort of award or recognition that circulated. He looks liked shit, not because he had a beard and long hair, but because he didn't take the extra step to make sure it was well kept. Instead he chose to look like a hobo larping as an officer.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

With leadership, we can absolutely trust our people to do that clearly. When someone looks like a homeless person, we take them aside and tell them. Never had issues doing that.

We can agree on this.

I can tell you that if you saw me on the street that you wouldn’t associate me to being a fighter pilot: I don’t « look the part. ». Somehow, I managed to have a pretty successful career so far

I commend you for your career. #TYFYS.

That’s a pretty cop out answer for an officer.

That is your opinon, not necessarily my reality.

Accuracy, Brevity, and Clarity are all the marks of proper orders. This has been reinforced constantly within my career and has been my raison d'etre when giving them. If your orders are lacking in one of the 3, its time to redraft them. Clarity being the most important of the 3.

I 100% expect the officers serving in my unit to explain the why to people, including to those trying to exploit the grey. I encourage everyone to challenge the institution so that frank discussions can happen.

I do as well. The "why" is the motivating factor in all things we do. It is ingrained in the Commander's Intent and is the point of all further action in the Execution phase.

Shades of grey will always occur, I'm not denying that and I too encourage my subordniates to seek out clarity and know it will be provided at all opportunities.

My point is that baking in shades of grey as a CoA, simply because the assumption of clarity, is where things fall down. Especially in this particular policy.

Your experience as a Fighter Pilot, an officer, a unit leader in the RCAF is not the same as mine as a Signals Officer, in a sub-unit of a field force in the Canadian Army.

We have differing priorities and differing opinions on how to best lead our respective teams. Neither are wrong, and both may have perceived flaws respective to how we would do thing differently in our contrasting tasks and employs.

I will agree to disagree with you and will let folks carry on with the thread.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Third hand info, take it for what you will. The American LOs (one of whom is a friend of mine) at ACTA got a very pointed phone call coming from the Command Sergeant Major at Fort Johnson asking if it was a prank that there were Canadian "soldiers" walking around their base looking like absolute bags. The U.S. was considering asking them to withdraw from the exercise.

Once the 3 R22eR CoC was engaged, they explained the new regs and asked them to just wait until they commenced trg. They performed extremely well, and the U.S. was like "ok, nevermind then. Proceed."

Definitely weighs heavy on the "See? Only operational excellence is important. Dress doesn't matter!" Side... but my counter to that is "they almost didnt get to demonstrate that operational excellence because they made a horrible first impression based on appearances."

Before this goes into the Army.CA hivemind of "truth", the US exchange personnel at ACTA worked for me. I was also the link to ARNORTH. We got lots of phone calls before, during and after JRTC 23, but they were regarding things like dangerous goods paperwork for vehicles stopped somewhere in the US, ammunition and fuel compatibility, comms, equipment at APODs etc etc. There is no mention of appearance in the many AAR documents produced during and after the exercise. During my debrief from the SFAB appearance was not mentioned.

I am sure that hair/beards raised a few eyebrows and caused some conversations, but there was never any consideration about sending the battalion home due to appearance regulations.

Having said all that, I welcome new appearance regulations that reign in the outliers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is what's circulating on social media.

 

[Remius]

It's all a very minor walk back. Sticking with natural colors and just keeping your hair tidy and clean looking.

And it's exactly what should have been the original orders.

I think back to that picture of an RCAF officer getting some sort of award or recognition that circulated. He looks liked shit, not because he had a beard and long hair, but because he didn't take the extra step to make sure it was well kept. Instead he chose to look like a hobo larping as an officer.

Yep. But some will cry foul. I hope to be proven wrong on that.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Before this goes into the Army.CA hivemind of "truth", the US exchange personnel at ACTA worked for me. I was also the link to ARNORTH. We got lots of phone calls before, during and after JRTC 23, but they were regarding things like dangerous goods paperwork for vehicles stopped somewhere in the US, ammunition and fuel compatibility, comms, equipment at APODs etc etc. There is no mention of appearance in the many AAR documents produced during and after the exercise. During my debrief from the SFAB appearance was not mentioned.

I am sure that hair/beards raised a few eyebrows and caused some conversations, but there was never any consideration about sending the battalion home due to appearance regulations.

Having said all that, I welcome new appearance regulations that reign in the outliers.

Thank you for your clarity on this one.

There were a few things that went pear shaped from what I had been told, but this makes far more sense.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yep. But some will cry foul. I hope to be proven wrong on that.

Absolutely. Some will be offended that they cant look like hobos or like they belong in the band Flock of Seagulls.

 

[Remius]

Absolutely. Some will be offended that they cant look like hobos or like they belong in the band Flock of Seagulls.

I’m probably repeating this story. But when the first beard rules came out, I grew one over that christmas break. .

Troops saw it and were surprised saying they didn’t think that the SNCOs were in favour of that. I explained that I grew one specifically to show the standard and that when correcting deficiencies that I could point to my beard as a standard. I followed up saying that our job is to enforce to rules not necessarily to agree with them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, from the 'Why you yell at the TV' files

Military Berets. The pain in a military advisors backside and how to shape them.

The pain in my backside and a constant complaint amongst veterans who will scream and rant at the TV “who was the military advisor on that” Last week, I ran a short poll on what grips t…

militaryadviserforfilmandtv.com

 

[RangerRay]

This is what's circulating on social media.

I don’t see any pictures of scraggly and patchy “beards” in any of those…