Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[OldSolduer]

How many Israeli terrorists hijacked international planes or blew them up?

How many Israeli protesters are shutting down public spaces, transportation, universities etc?

Seems the majority of the world might just be hitting the easy button.

I will answer your questions - none.

But there will be retribution and it will be severe.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How many Israeli terrorists hijacked international planes or blew them up?

How many Israeli protesters are shutting down public spaces, transportation, universities etc?

How many Israeli refugees when to neighboring countries and started civil wars, some resulting in over 150,000 fatalities?

Seems the majority of the world might just be hitting the easy button.

The history behind the conflict is fascinating and very complicated, as you might expect.

Israelis were pretty effective terrorists in their own right, and they killed alot of British soldiers, civilians and Palestinian Police and civilians, then some of their leaders eventually became Prime Ministers e.g., Menachem Begun. Ironically, they were largely trained by the British in WW2, including by Orde Wingate.

Alot of their funding came from Canadians too, which is an interesting history all of its own. The Bronfmans - for example - are still well regarded in Israel.

This doesn't excuse Hamas' latest actions in the least, of course, but it's a good reminder to avoid getting sucked into debates about Middle Eastern history whenever possible, apart from safely distanced topics like the role of the Cedars of Lebanon in the evolution of the Phoenician Empire, and give thanks that you live in Canada.

The British Army in Palestine | National Army Museum

In the 1940s, the British Army found itself stuck in the middle of a growing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. The momentous events that followed led to the creation of the State of Israel.

www.nam.ac.uk

Menachem Begin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Irgun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lehi (militant group) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Eaglelord17]

It definitely makes me wonder whether Spain has thought through their position, or are just reacting.

Legitimizing terrorism and violence to achieve "state" status is not something I'd be doing if I was running Spain. Then again, my understanding of Spanish politics is barely even surface level.

What makes a State? Defined control over a area. Violence is generally how States come into being, very rarely is a non-violent event.

Notice Spain et al, weren’t legitimizing Hamas, rather Palestine. The main question is who are they declaring the ‘legitimate’ government. Is this going to be another China issue like how we refused to recognize Communist China and instead Nationalist China? Is it going to be the West Banks government representing the whole area?

Declaring Palestine a state has advantages as it means that you can declare defined borders. The whole wait for them both to come to a solution is kicking the issue down the road. Sometimes there needs to be a change in the status quo to make change happen. Whether or not that means anything to Israel is a whole other story.

 

[Good2Golf]

After 2005, Israel and Egypt maintained effective control of the strip deciding who gets in and out, what gets in and out, controlled the air space and enacted a naval blockade..etc.

Helping you out with some accuracy challenges.

But who cares about the Palestinians, they’re just a bunch of Terrorists (“they had their chance and they blew it” as some would say).

Many people care about the Palestinians. Most people abhor Hamas, which Canada continues to affirm is a terrorist organization.

A good friend of mine is a Gazan Palestinian and while he has been in Canada for a number of years, much of his family remains in Gaza. That said, he is a Maronite Christian and he recounted on numerous occasions to me the poor manner in which many Muslim Palestinians/Gazans in general, and Hamas in particular have treated his family, so I have a challenge to take your rainbows and unicorns view of Hamas’ virtuosity as an earnest truth.

 

[Brad Sallows]

In comparison, the "Golden Age" for Jews was when they lived under Islamic rule in Muslim Spain (9 & 10th century) and when Jews of Europe were suffering in the holocaust, Arab Jews of Iraq/Morocco were ministers in governments!

That's quite a while ago. How are the Jewish communities in the majority-Muslim countries of the Middle East faring today?

 

[Maxman1]

It's complicated...

View attachment 85405

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What makes a State? Defined control over a area. Violence is generally how States come into being, very rarely is a non-violent event.

Notice Spain et al, weren’t legitimizing Hamas, rather Palestine. The main question is who are they declaring the ‘legitimate’ government. Is this going to be another China issue like how we refused to recognize Communist China and instead Nationalist China? Is it going to be the West Banks government representing the whole area?

Declaring Palestine a state has advantages as it means that you can declare defined borders. The whole wait for them both to come to a solution is kicking the issue down the road. Sometimes there needs to be a change in the status quo to make change happen. Whether or not that means anything to Israel is a whole other story.

At some point Israel is going to have to declare the WB as part of Israel and evict a good chunk of the palestinians. It is area where a demographic war is being waged. The WB both demographically and geographical is critical to Israel survival as a State. Gaza is neither. The Palestinian ethnically exists in other States, notably Jordon and Syria. Neither of these States are being asked to give up territory to create a Palestinian State (yet). The Gazan Palestinians are mostly ethnically a different population than the WB Palestinians, and are in part descendants from the Sea People.

Evicting people from where they live is unpleasant, but likley necessary, you notice few people gave a crap about that when the Jews were evicted across the Muslim world, whole populations in Sudan, Uganda, Myanmar and recently in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. (Also historical happened in BC where whole tribes where eradicated by other FN and their territory taken).
Despite the international legal implications, pushing a Palestinian State in the WB is going to lead to unending war and suffering for both Israelis and Palestinians there. There are ways to make that eviction less painful for everyone, but of course we won't do that.

As for Gaza, they have take any hope of a economically viable State and utterly destroyed it. Israel will never let another Gazan step into Israel for the next 2 generations at least, removing a huge economic enabler. Israel is also going to provide the bare minimum in water and electricity to the area. If Hamas remains as a viable entity, then Egypt is also going to remain utterly hostile to Gaza as well. At this point Hamas has successfully turned Gaza into a complete failed State with absolutely no hope other than foreign aid to survive on indefinitely.

 

[QV]

Yep. Time to disperse the non-violent populace to places where they can start over and hopefully thrive.

 

[brihard]

At some point Israel is going to have to declare the WB as part of Israel and evict a good chunk of the palestinians. It is area where a demographic war is being waged. The WB both demographically and geographical is critical to Israel survival as a State. Gaza is neither. The Palestinian ethnically exists in other States, notably Jordon and Syria. Neither of these States are being asked to give up territory to create a Palestinian State (yet). The Gazan Palestinians are mostly ethnically a different population than the WB Palestinians, and are in part descendants from the Sea People.

There are a few problems with this, but the big one is that what you’re describing - annexing territory and driving the civilian population out - is literally crimes against humanity. There’s a hideous irony that a country borne out of a genocide, and whose legitimacy as a created state derives almost entirely from same, would consider a path like you describe.

Israel has a right to exist, and history has shown that Israel has a legitimate military necessity to maintain a military buffer in the West Bank so as to be able to physically defend their territory. Fair enough. But that does not permit or legitimize the annexation and dispossession of the land and the expulsion of the population for civil settlement purposes. It would be blatant a naked aggression.

We know what to expect from failed states or totalitarian adversaries. Israel is still a first world democracy. It would be disappointing to see them descend to the level you describe. It would also further accelerate their gradual political, diplomatic, and potentially economic and social isolation.

 

[QV]

But that does not permit or legitimize the annexation and dispossession of the land and the expulsion of the population for civil settlement purposes. It would be blatant a naked aggression.

I'd call it winning the war. A war started by the Palestinian government.

 

[abduly85]

This arrogance is really starting to alienate Israel and causing it to lose close allies:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793717301361177037

Also, the ICJ announced that they'll be delivering their decision tomorrow on South Africa's request for provisional orders in light of Israel's invasion of Rafah:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793556139344527479

 

[brihard]

I'd call it winning the war. A war started by the Palestinian government.

Hamas does not govern the West Bank, but thanks for coming out.

 

[QV]

Hamas does not govern the West Bank, but thanks for coming out.

Yep, my bad. I meant Gaza. You may carry on now.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There are a few problems with this, but the big one is that what you’re describing - annexing territory and driving the civilian population out - is literally crimes against humanity. There’s a hideous irony that a country borne out of a genocide, and whose legitimacy as a created state derives almost entirely from same, would consider a path like you describe.

Israel has a right to exist, and history has shown that Israel has a legitimate military necessity to maintain a military buffer in the West Bank so as to be able to physically defend their territory. Fair enough. But that does not permit or legitimize the annexation and dispossession of the land and the expulsion of the population for civil settlement purposes. It would be blatant a naked aggression.

We know what to expect from failed states or totalitarian adversaries. Israel is still a first world democracy. It would be disappointing to see them descend to the level you describe. It would also further accelerate their gradual political, diplomatic, and potentially economic and social isolation.

Then you condemn both sides to a endless war, in this there is no even a half decent solution and Hamas has effectively removed any cooperative concept off the table for a very, very long time. I don't know any other country that would willingly accept being cut in half, with only a 13km wide corridor to sustain the connection between the two halves of the country. To put that in perspective, Hamas manged to penetrate some 18km into Israel on Oct 7th.
If I was the PM of Israel, I would offer a good chunk of money to any Palestinian that wants to emigrate from the WB with their family, with the knowledge that it's a 1 way trip. If I was the POTUS I would quietly support that and pressure Muslim countries to accept them and give them a realistic avenue to citizenship.

 

[Quirky]

I thought "Palestinian Government" = Whatever the hell is the West Bank. I guess that's Gaza now?

How do you recognize a place, which has no established borders and no established government. Clown world.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Then you condemn both sides to a endless war, in this there is no even a half decent solution and Hamas has effectively removed any cooperative concept off the table for a very, very long time. I don't know any other country that would willingly accept being cut in half, with only a 13km wide corridor to sustain the connection between the two halves of the country. To put that in perspective, Hamas manged to penetrate some 18km into Israel on Oct 7th.
If I was the PM of Israel, I would offer a good chunk of money to any Palestinian that wants to emigrate from the WB with their family, with the knowledge that it's a 1 way trip. If I was the POTUS I would quietly support that and pressure Muslim countries to accept them and give them a realistic avenue to citizenship.

The other option based off your logic is the Israelis can leave. Realistically they basically all lived somewhere else within two generations, be it Europe, US, Canada, etc. The only thing really tying them to the area is the fact they chose to move there for religious reasons. The Palestinians were born there and have lived there for centuries if not millennia. Why should they have to leave because someone else declared it their land that god gave them?

Do I have the right to evict both Israelis and Palestinians because I can trace my heritage to the Templars?

I thought "Palestinian Government" = Whatever the hell is the West Bank. I guess that's Gaza now?

How do you recognize a place, which has no established borders and no established government. Clown world.

Considering most nations didn’t have established borders until very recently (last 100 years or so, those established borders being a disaster in many parts of the world, like the middle east where lines were just drawn) it can and has been done. We still have disputed borders all over the world, Hans island is a simple example of that.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hamas does not govern the West Bank, but thanks for coming out.

They have been actively trying to take it over. If they had not done Oct 7th, they would eventually likley succeed to become the defacto rulers there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The other option based off your logic is the Israelis can leave. Realistically they basically all lived somewhere else within two generations, be it Europe, US, Canada, etc. The only thing really tying them to the area is the fact they chose to move there for religious reasons. The Palestinians were born there and have lived there for centuries if not millennia. Why should they have to leave because someone else declared it their land that god gave them?

Do I have the right to evict both Israelis and Palestinians because I can trace my heritage to the Templars?

Considering most nations didn’t have established borders until very recently (last 100 years or so, those established borders being a disaster in many parts of the world, like the middle east where lines were just drawn) it can and has been done. We still have disputed borders all over the world, Hans island is a simple example of that.

The Jews suffered 2,000 years of oppression, the holocaust was the last straw. The Israelis will likely rather die then trust any other country to safeguard them again. Islam cannot tolerate the Jews being even equals (much less more successful) and not in a region it claims. Many of the Israelis came from other Islamic areas and cannot return to the homes of their Great Grandparents who were forced out of homes they lived in for hundreds/thousand of years. The entire concept of "Palestine" is a recent religious/political construct.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The other option based off your logic is the Israelis can leave. Realistically they basically all lived somewhere else within two generations, be it Europe, US, Canada, etc.

Except the ones born there.

The only thing really tying them to the area is the fact they chose to move there for religious reasons.

Also because it's the one place in the world they can be pretty sure does not have anti-semitism embedded in its institutions.

The Palestinians were born there and have lived there for centuries if not millennia. Why should they have to leave because someone else declared it their land that god gave them?

They shouldn't have to leave, but in practical terms they have the choice of accepting the sh!tty situation and getting along (means: no violence) with the newcomers, or not.

 

[KevinB]

If you watch history, the Israelis not just have the various Arab wars, but if you look at the spread of Islam in nations in the past 500 years, you can see why they have zero interest in accommodating the Palestinians.