2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Eaglelord17]

He can't release his platform yet. Trudeau or Singh will just steal it and modify it to fit their positions. Trudeau already did it with housing. Rest assured, he has a platform that he'll release in due time. Likely once the writ is dropped.

If its a good platform wouldn’t that be a good thing?

At the end of the day politicians are here to serve Canada. If any of them have a good idea/plan they should be sharing it. I really don’t care which party does it, only that it gets done.

For example in Ontario Ford just announced he’s changing the requirement to get a drs note on sick days. This is a good thing. Even if the only reason we are currently required to get one is because of Ford cancelling that in the first place. Wynne was actually the first to change it, then Ford rolled it back. Now hes putting that back.

Either way its a good policy whether its the Liberals or Conservatives doing it, it just makes sense (reduces strain on health care, reduces people going to work sick and spreading it because of crappy employers, etc.). Canada benefits from a policy like that which should be the goal of any politician.

 

[lenaitch]

If its a good platform wouldn’t that be a good thing?

In a normal world, yes, but we (they) are in 'pre-election mode'. What Ford did was just governing. Things are pretty stable in Ontario. The next scheduled election is two years out. Both opposition parties have new leaders and perhaps financial issues.

I don't really know why to so-called pre-election period starts, but I suspect is it when the polls reveal some kind of trend or momentum, for any party, in any direction. Party strategists read the tea leaves and interpret either vulnerability or opportunity. The federal Liberals and trending down, the Conservatives up, so they smell vulnerability, like wolves circling an injured moose.

 

[mariomike]

For example in Ontario Ford just announced he’s changing the requirement to get a drs note on sick days. This is a good thing. Even if the only reason we are currently required to get one is because of Ford cancelling that in the first place. Wynne was actually the first to change it, then Ford rolled it back. Now hes putting that back.

Employees ( At least where I worked, and possibly other employers as well, Disability being a provincial Human Rights issue. ) with a "Disability" were protected from Attendance Management.

Diabetes; arthritis; muscular dystrophy; cancer; cerebral palsy; chronic migraine headache; having a deformed limb, back, hand or foot; chronic deep vein thrombosis; epilepsy/seizures; polio; head or brain injury; a degree of paralysis, amputation, blindness or visual impairment; deafness or hearing impairment; muteness or speech impairment; physical reliance on a wheelchair or other remedial appliance or device; chronic gynecological condition; drug or alcohol dependency; chronic condition of the hand or wrist, including chronic carpel tunnel syndrome; fibromyalgia; chronic pain syndrome; heart disease or condition; hypertension (high blood pressure); Crohn's disease; ulcerative colitis; chronic enlargement of the prostate; chronic gastroenteritis; other chronic condition of the stomach, bowel, kidney or bladder; HIVIAIDS; allergies, including chronic sinusitis; back, spine, knee, elbow, neck, shoulder, groin, hip, foot or ankle condition or injury leading to a chronic medical problem; multiple sclerosis, ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), or other chronic neurological condition; Epstein-Barre syndrome; narcolepsy; stroke; chronic condition of the eye; obesity resulting from an injury, illness or other cause that is beyond the control of the individual; mental disorder including personality disorder, obsessive- compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or depression; chronic repetitive strain injury; Parkinson's disease; asthma, emphysema, or other chronic lung disease; and hepatitis. Included by definition in a "disability" are the side effects of prescribed medication being used to treat the "disability".

 

[Good2Golf]

He can't release his platform yet. Trudeau or Singh will just steal it and modify it to fit their positions. Trudeau already did it with housing. Rest assured, he has a platform that he'll release in due time. Likely once the writ is dropped.

At the end of the day politicians are here to serve Canada. If any of them have a good idea/plan they should be sharing it. I really don’t care which party does it, only that it gets done.

I suppose when it comes to assessing what the CPC’s platform ‘may or will’ be, their fingers become incapable on clicking on the link to the CPC’s online policy…which includes 189 policy elements/statememts.

https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/23175001/990863517f7a575.pdf

Example:



Some people seem to love using this as one example of saying the CPC would change the GoC position on abortion, for example, which it states it will not. Similar people often point to private members bills as counter to this, yet stay silent on LPC or NDP PMBs to do things like mandate a state for Palestine with Hamas retained as its elected government….et al.

So is this CPC policy not good enough to form the basis of a future campaign?

Where is the LPC platform? The NDP’s?

 

[GR66]

Where is the LPC platform? The NDP’s?

Well....technically it's right here:

Budget 2024

The 2024 Canadian federal budget

budget.canada.ca

 

[brihard]

Well....technically it's right here:

Budget 2024

The 2024 Canadian federal budget

budget.canada.ca

This. The government currently in power has their budget, their actual actions and any number of government bills in the legislature as the most concrete demonstration of their intent and capability to govern. This is an advantage the opposition parties lack; in the absence of their ability to actually concretely act, we have to rely on them telling us.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This. The government currently in power has their budget, their actual actions and any number of government bills in the legislature as the most concrete demonstration of their intent and capability to govern. This is an advantage the opposition parties lack; in the absence of their ability to actually concretely act, we have to rely on them telling us.

You call it an advantage, I see the opposition as having the advantage. They have no need for a platform until the writ is dropped. And they would be silly to publish before then. Especially this far out.

The sitting Gov actually has to put forward their platform via legislation. It's easier to sit in opposition than as the Gov.

PP is great in opposition, and he had better deliver when he forms a Gov. Or I don't see him being more than a 1 term PM.

 

[Good2Golf]

Well....technically it's right here:

Budget 2024

The 2024 Canadian federal budget

budget.canada.ca

This. The government currently in power has their budget, their actual actions and any number of government bills in the legislature as the most concrete demonstration of their intent and capability to govern. This is an advantage the opposition parties lack; in the absence of their ability to actually concretely act, we have to rely on them telling us.

Ah, got it. So…reduce the number of doctors in Canada is an LPC and NDP platform position, then. Check.

Changes to capital-gains tax may prompt doctors to quit, CMA warns - The Globe and Mail

Most physicians operate their practices as small businesses through medical professional corporations, which leaves them more sensitive to changes in capital-gains rules

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[dimsum]

You call it an advantage, I see the opposition as having the advantage. They have no need for a platform until the writ is dropped. And they would be silly to publish before then. Especially this far out.

The sitting Gov actually has to put forward their platform via legislation. It's easier to sit in opposition than as the Gov.

PP is great in opposition, and he had better deliver when he forms a Gov. Or I don't see him being more than a 1 term PM.

It can be both. A sitting govt can point to the budget and say definitively that they plan on doing whatever because of the budget. Assuming the budget passes, that means that the other parties also agree (in theory).

But yes, sitting as opposition is easier - as in any other circumstance. It’s easier to just pick apart something and not have to come up with solutions of your own - just read any Reddit comment.

I said this from the day Poilievre became leader - at some point in the election campaign he’ll need to stop being the attack dog, define the CPC platform, and respond to folks calling him out on anything they don’t like on it. He’ll also need to reconcile the various factions of the CPC voter base - will he try to move to the centre like what O’Toole tried to do (and got punted for)? Or will he slide right and potentially alienate the more centrist CPC voters?

 

[GR66]

Ah, got it. So…reduce the number of doctors in Canada is an LPC and NDP platform position, then. Check.

Changes to capital-gains tax may prompt doctors to quit, CMA warns - The Globe and Mail

Most physicians operate their practices as small businesses through medical professional corporations, which leaves them more sensitive to changes in capital-gains rules

www.theglobeandmail.com

Actually in the opinion of the CMA it's a potential consequence of a LPC platform position not the overt objective of their stated position. And of course the LPC (and supporting NDP) can and should be judged by that should the reduction in doctors that the CMA warns MAY happen actually occur.

 

[dapaterson]

Accountants who can't properly structure investments are complaining that they're going to have to work for their money.

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually in the opinion of the CMA it's a potential consequence of a LPC platform position not the overt objective of their stated position. And of course the LPC (and supporting NDP) can and should be judged by that should the reduction in doctors that the CMA warns MAY happen actually occur.

Right, so see how it seems when people say a 49-page policy document by a party doesn’t form a basis of that party’s future campaign platform?

 

[brihard]

Ah, got it. So…reduce the number of doctors in Canada is an LPC and NDP platform position, then. Check.

Changes to capital-gains tax may prompt doctors to quit, CMA warns - The Globe and Mail

Most physicians operate their practices as small businesses through medical professional corporations, which leaves them more sensitive to changes in capital-gains rules

www.theglobeandmail.com

I had not previously been aware of how doctors were using professional corporations as a way to shelter themselves from income taxes and to fund their retirement. That's great that they've had access to that financial mechanism that the rest of us in our professions basically don't have. If I could incorporate myself, bill my earnings to a corporate account, dodge taxes at what would otherwise be my marginal rate, and shift to a tax-beneficial dividend-based income for retirement that would be pretty great. I can't, and most Canadians can't. There's a limited amount of sympathy in play there.

There are huge issues with doctor compensation, most of which rest at the provincial level. Maybe we should just be paying them properly in the first place rather than incentivizing loopholes and legal tax dodges that most people don't get to do. Maybe we shouldn't be forcing them out of family medicine because the margins on a clinic are too tight to offset the cost of their education. Maybe we should subsidize the hell out of that education in the first place, contingent on a period of practice in Canada. But these are very distinct issues from individual workers working corporate structures to shield their income and then getting upset when corporate capital gains face increased taxation.

 

[Good2Golf]

There are huge issues with doctor compensation, most of which rest at the provincial level. Maybe we should just be paying them properly in the first place rather than incentivizing loopholes and legal tax dodges that most people don't get to do. Maybe we shouldn't be forcing them out of family medicine because the margins on a clinic are too tight to offset the cost of their education. Maybe we should subsidize the hell out of that education in the first place, contingent on a period of practice in Canada.

So you mean, maybe that should be in a political party’s platform?

Red (using the 2021 platform since…no published party policy or 2025 platform)


Orange (NDP calls it a Platform, but looks like a policy in same form as CPC)


Blue (official party Policy, no published 2025 ‘platform’)

 

[dapaterson]

So you mean, maybe that should be in a political party’s platform?

Since education and medical licensure are provincial responsibilities, perhaps a provincial government could take the initiative to do their job.

 

[Good2Golf]

Since education and medical licensure are provincial responsibilities, perhaps a provincial government could take the initiative to do their job.

So health care isn’t a federal responsibility like….ummmm….housing?

 

[brihard]

So health care isn’t a federal responsibility like….ummmm….housing?

We've been over that in the housing thread. The feds carry a portion of the demand side responsibility but are stepping in to try to move past provincial failures on the supply side.

On the health side, most of what the feds can do is offer fenced funding for certain initiatives, but it's still fundamentally a provincial responsibility. The first and foremost federal role there is to use equalization mechanisms to ensure a certain standard of care is available reasonably equally. On the simple question of 'pay doctors more', that's provincial.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I had not previously been aware of how doctors were using professional corporations as a way to shelter themselves from income taxes and to fund their retirement. That's great that they've had access to that financial mechanism that the rest of us in our professions basically don't have. If I could incorporate myself, bill my earnings to a corporate account, dodge taxes at what would otherwise be my marginal rate, and shift to a tax-beneficial dividend-based income for retirement that would be pretty great. I can't, and most Canadians can't. There's a limited amount of sympathy in play there.

There are huge issues with doctor compensation, most of which rest at the provincial level. Maybe we should just be paying them properly in the first place rather than incentivizing loopholes and legal tax dodges that most people don't get to do. Maybe we shouldn't be forcing them out of family medicine because the margins on a clinic are too tight to offset the cost of their education. Maybe we should subsidize the hell out of that education in the first place, contingent on a period of practice in Canada. But these are very distinct issues from individual workers working corporate structures to shield their income and then getting upset when corporate capital gains face increased taxation.

I have a hard time finding sympathy for the one the highest paid professions in Canada when it come to pay and benefits and taxation.

 

[Good2Golf]

We've been over that in the housing thread. The feds carry a portion of the demand side responsibility but are stepping in to try to move past provincial failures on the supply side.

Exactly.

So in review, many here have been complaining that Poilievre hasn’t yet provided an election platform, notwithstanding: a) an election has yet to be called through the dropping of a writ; b) he and the party HAVE published a party policy, looking very similar in form to the NDP policy which is actually labelled a platform; and c) many of the things he is being critiqued for in a ‘missing’ platform, while noted in a policy, are provincial responsibilities.

Put them together on the whole, and it makes those complaining about Poilievre having yet to formally publish a 2025 election platform seem a bit inconsistent in their critique.

I like others look forward to the writ dropping and seeing how Canadians judge all political leaders and incumbent/potential MPs.

 

[brihard]

Exactly.

So in review, many here have been complaining that Poilievre hasn’t yet provided an election platform, notwithstanding: a) an election has yet to be called through the dropping of a writ; b) he and the party HAVE published a party policy, looking very similar in form to the NDP policy which is actually labelled a platform; and c) many of the things he is being critiqued for in a ‘missing’ platform, while noted in a policy, are provincial responsibilities.

Put them together on the whole, and it makes those complaining about Poilievre having yet to formally publish a 2025 election platform seem a bit inconsistent in their critique.

I like others look forward to the writ dropping and seeing how Canadians judge all political leaders and incumbent/potential MPs.

I can’t speak to that; I merely noted that the governing party has the advantage of being in a position to show what it’s actually doing/willing to do.

If you were firing back at me thinking I was in here with some sort of a complaint, that was a misread.