Aerospace Control Operator ( AC Op )

[jwtg]

If I went in now though I would start over in rank once I moved to officer, but if I wait until next year it's possible AEC won't open again, and then I will have wasted another year.

'Start over in rank' doesn't really mean anything- You would go from your NCM rank to OCdt/2lt/LT (I guess depending on your qualifications prior to OT- someone more in the know could provide details on to how you would transfer over) but it wouldn't be 'starting over' in rank.  You would be receiving a commission and, by virtue of being a commissioned officer, be 'above' your previous rank. 

I think the advice you need - tough as it sounds - is that you can't get a job if the openings aren't there.  You need to pick an officer trade or ncm trade that you want AND is open, otherwise wait it out and 'waste' x number of years before what you want becomes open. 

A lot of people don't get their first choice of trade.

Best of luck!

 

[jemcgrg]

By starting over I just mean that if I waited to go in as officer, say next, year I would have a higher rank than waiting to OT later and going back to a 2LT. But there is no guarentee that it will open.

I just don't think I want to be an ncm for forever. I understand that if you excel at your trade often they will suggest that you get commissioned anyway (as per RC) but I don't know if it is any different with ACE and AC OP.

 

[Aerospaced_out]

Have they rejected the notion of you joining in another open officer occupation? The timeline for OT as an NCM or an Officer will not be significantly different. Mind you some officer qualifications do have much longer training programs and backlogs (not unlike AEC).

 

[jemcgrg]

Have they rejected the notion of you joining in another open officer occupation? The timeline for OT as an NCM or an Officer will not be significantly different. Mind you some officer qualifications do have much longer training programs and backlogs (not unlike AEC).

The available officer trades are almost nil. Opening this year are Marine Systems Engineer (I don't have an engineering degree), Naval Combat (I don't want Navy), Armored and Infantry (Neither of which I think I would be very suited for) and that's all folks other than Pilot which I am required to get my private license before pursuing.

All this information was confirmed with two recruiting centres.

 

[GMK]

Has anyone had a job offer for AC Op yet this year?

 

[airdelta2]

The available officer trades are almost nil. Opening this year are Marine Systems Engineer (I don't have an engineering degree), Naval Combat (I don't want Navy), Armored and Infantry (Neither of which I think I would be very suited for) and that's all folks other than Pilot which I am required to get my private license before pursuing.

All this information was confirmed with two recruiting centres.

By naval combat do you mean MARS officer? And btw: Pilot (for DEO) does NOT require a private license (I went to the RC last week to discuss this)...many people with private licenses fail the simulator (so I have been told). The only reason someone would need to get a 'higher license' is because they failed the simulator before and need to get that license to prove they have improved. So Pilot is open to you, at least for ACS (the simulator).

Judging by your post: You really want AEC and will not choose any other potential option because that will (at least for 5 years+) prevent you from becoming an AEC. That's respectable but comes with a price (waiting or doing non-officer ATC). If I was in your situation I would either a) wait it out if I knew I'd qualify for the trade (and the wait was 1-2 yrs) or b) pick a different trade that I was interested in. Armoured and Mars are pretty cool but by your taste for AEC - have you checked out ACSO?

EDITED. Failure rate is 15%+, not pass.

I like the sounds of MARS/Armour being open, I might pick one of them when I apply DEO if ACSO/Pilot are not options.

 

[navymich]

BTW: From what I heard (from a current ACSO and an AEC): The pass rate for AEC training (to become an AEC) is about 15%.

15% pass rate?  Really?  I would suggest that would be a 15% fail rate.  All three AEC paths (IFR, VFR and Weapons) were in process when I was doing my QL3 (yes, it was four years ago, but I know it hasn't changed that drastically).  VFR had 100% pass, IFR 50% and Weapons 75%.  Not even close to 15%.

 

[airdelta2]

15% pass rate?  Really?  I would suggest that would be a 15% fail rate.  All three AEC paths (IFR, VFR and Weapons) were in process when I was doing my QL3 (yes, it was four years ago, but I know it hasn't changed that drastically).  VFR had 100% pass, IFR 50% and Weapons 75%.  Not even close to 15%.

Yeah, I must have heard wrong. It did sound kinda high to me...but is the pilot failure rate (once accepted after ACS simulator) even lower than 15% then (cause the person said ACSO/Pilot had a lower fail rate than AEC). At the RC they told me that failure rate for pilot (simulation testing at trenton) is at least 70%.

Do you get to choose which path you want or is it chosen for you/based on available space? I looked at AEC as a potential option (I am applying DEO next year) but I'd want to be doing Air Weapons.

 

[jemcgrg]

failure rate for AEC is closer to 65%.

I did fail the simulation last year, that is why I need my private license.

MARS isn't supposed to be opening this year and no its not what I mean by Naval Combat Engineer.

ASCO isnt opening either

 

[jemcgrg]

Also, I did completely qualify for AEC, I only needed my interview last year but the trade closed after it was scheduled but before I got to do it.

 

[airdelta2]

failure rate for AEC is closer to 65%.

I did fail the simulation last year, that is why I need my private license.

MARS isn't supposed to be opening this year and no its not what I mean by Naval Combat Engineer.

ASCO isnt opening either

Are you thinking of getting your private license in the mean time? About how many people failed it when you were there (out of how many)? I heard if you got previous flight experience/simulation experience that you got a good shot of passing. Moreso the latter. I am applying in 2012 so HOPEFULLY all these closed trades (pilot, acso, mars) open up. Otherwise I will wait a year and see what happens.

 

[yoman]

I heard if you got previous flight experience/simulation experience that you got a good shot of passing.

NO!!! It will help you with knowing the instruments and the basic flying skills but I know of commercial pilots who have failed aircrew. It's not only about your current skill level its also about how fast you can learn and adapt.

About how many people failed it when you were there (out of how many)? Moreso the latter. I am applying in 2012 so HOPEFULLY all these closed trades (pilot, acso, mars) open up. Otherwise I will wait a year and see what happens.

When I did it 9 people out of 12 failed. I was one of the lucky ones who passed. I also passed the medical part but in the end I got picked for MARS. Oh well, it's an equally challenging job and I'm happy with it.

 

[airdelta2]

NO!!! It will help you with knowing the instruments and the basic flying skills but I know of commercial pilots who have failed aircrew. It's not only about your current skill level its also about how fast you can learn and adapt.

When I did it 9 people out of 12 failed. I was one of the lucky ones who passed. I also passed the medical part but in the end I got picked for MARS. Oh well, it's an equally challenging job and I'm happy with it.

Wouldn't direct simulator training prepare someone for aircrew, like if they trained in a simulator (not pilot)?

So you can pass the simulator and still not get chosen for pilot (even if simulator/medical check out like your case)? I was looking at MARS as an option if Pilot doesn't work out - what would you suggest studying for the MARS test (not specifics since that private, more like general knowledge - like is it a lot of the spatial questions ACSO's have to deal with (since spatial awareness is huge for mars too)? What I am worried about is choosing Pilot, ACSO and MARS and then none of them being open (I am applying in 2012).

 

[Bowen]

failure rate for AEC is closer to 65%.

I did fail the simulation last year, that is why I need my private license.

MARS isn't supposed to be opening this year and no its not what I mean by Naval Combat Engineer.

ASCO isnt opening either

This might be a silly question. But are these not open to DEO applicants? Or all applicants? As far as I know they are open to ROTP applicants this year. Otherwise the RC would not have let me do the ACSO Test along with several other candidates.

 

[yoman]

Wouldn't direct simulator training prepare someone for aircrew, like if they trained in a simulator (not pilot)?

So you can pass the simulator and still not get chosen for pilot (even if simulator/medical check out like your case)? I was looking at MARS as an option if Pilot doesn't work out - what would you suggest studying for the MARS test (not specifics since that private, more like general knowledge - like is it a lot of the spatial questions ACSO's have to deal with (since spatial awareness is huge for mars too)? What I am worried about is choosing Pilot, ACSO and MARS and then none of them being open (I am applying in 2012).

Simulators/real planes can help but only to a certain degree. The CAPSS simulator that they use at aircrew is very unique. Like I said before I know a lot of private pilots and some commercial pilots who had a real hard time with it. Your ability to learn and correct for you mistakes is critical. If your interested in reading a bit about it here's a link to a report made in the early 2000's about it. http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc01/p506202.pdf

Yes you can pass Aircrew Selection and not get chosen for pilot. It all depends on what the CF needs at the time and how the rest of your application looks (CFAT, interview etc).

My entry plan (ROTP) did not require me to go on NOAB so I don't have first hand knowledge of the MARS test. From what I know from Personnel Selection Officer briefings the test has math, spatial orientation and logic questions. He also mentioned that one cannot really study too much for the test. A good review in your basic math is good but besides that theirs not much you can do.

 

[dardt]

If your interested in reading a bit about it here's a link to a report made in the early 2000's about it. http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc01/p506202.pdf

Good read, first time I've seen this level of written detail on CAPSS (although a bit dated). I'm curious as to the current cutoff (0.7, 0.8 or something else ?). At first glance 0.8 would seem to match the rough pass rates at aircrew selection. Also the first time I've seen the 5-abort termination policy in writing.  I remember there being conflicting information on exactly what that meant in regards to selection if one aborted 5 times in Hour 4.
Would be interesting to see a follow up.

 

[yoman]

Would be interesting to see a follow up.

Your wish is my command 
http://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc90/p532336.pdf

It's not a direct follow on from the other one but its still about the same subject.

Sorry about the drift into CAPSS talk...

 

[airdelta2]

If you pass capps but don't get chosen - what would they be basing that off of? I am guessing the interview is the other places they assess if you're right for pilot.

 

[jemcgrg]

This might be a silly question. But are these not open to DEO applicants? Or all applicants? As far as I know they are open to ROTP applicants this year. Otherwise the RC would not have let me do the ACSO Test along with several other candidates.

I can only speak to DEO as that is what i was going in for.

 

[jemcgrg]

Wouldn't direct simulator training prepare someone for aircrew, like if they trained in a simulator (not pilot)?

So you can pass the simulator and still not get chosen for pilot (even if simulator/medical check out like your case)? I was looking at MARS as an option if Pilot doesn't work out - what would you suggest studying for the MARS test (not specifics since that private, more like general knowledge - like is it a lot of the spatial questions ACSO's have to deal with (since spatial awareness is huge for mars too)? What I am worried about is choosing Pilot, ACSO and MARS and then none of them being open (I am applying in 2012).

When I was there for the simulation 1 of 7 of us made it through the simulation testing and the instructor told us that fighter pilots have actually failed the test. So previous flight experience definitely wouldn't determine a pass vs a fail