"Military closes bars after arrest" - Military illiteracy strikes again

[Allen]

Doesn't look like this has been posted elsewhere. That headline intrigued me, so I read on...

Full story: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/502855

He is a master corporal in the Lorne Scots Brigade, said Capt. Bob Kennedy, public affairs officer for the 32nd Canadian Brigade.

???

John Bakai, the 25-year-old charged in connection with their deaths, has been a member of the Canadian Forces Primary Reserve since February 2001.

OK, that makes sense...

The mess halls, which will stay closed while the military investigates the incident, are essentially small bars where cadets gather to socialize, Kennedy said.

???

There are three armouries, two in Oakville and one in Brampton, for the three regiments of the Lorne Scots brigade of Army Cadets.

D'OH!!

 

[1feral1]

I don't think to PAFFO and the media have a clue on this.

The wording is confusing.

What is clear that a drunk soldier killed two innocent guys who were on their way to work.

The accused gets to stay with his Mum and Dad, while the the famiy of those he's killed mourn, and have lost everything in a country far from home.


Cheers,

OWDU

 

[The Bread Guy]

Before we jump on the PAffO too  much, let's remember, quotes like these:

He is a master corporal in the Lorne Scots Brigade, said Capt. Bob Kennedy, public affairs officer for the 32nd Canadian Brigade.

The mess halls, which will stay closed while the military investigates the incident, are essentially small bars where cadets gather to socialize, Kennedy said.

are the reporter's PARAPHRASES of what was said, as opposed to this:

"The mess halls operate under the same liquor laws as any other establishment where liquor is served," Kennedy said.

which is a verbatim quote.

We can't tell what the PAffO said, we can only see what was written.  I'm guessing the reporter may think Reservists are like Cadets, but didn't specifically ask the difference (which the PAffO would likely be able to explain).

 

[The_Falcon]

I clicked on the link provided on the stories pages, to let them know about any errors a story may contain. 

This is what I sent

"There several GLARING errors with your story.  First of all in your headline you refer to the accused as a Corporal, when he is in fact a Master Corporal. Second in your first paragraph you called him a recruit, despite the fact that 2 paragraphs later, you state his acual rank, and that he has been a member of the reserves since 7 years.  Third you refer to the Lorne Scots Brigade, when the proper terminology is the Lorne Scots Regiment. Fourth you started confusing the army cadets (a youth organization for 12-18 year olds) with the Army Reserve, by stating that the mess halls (also an error as mess halls are where people eat, they are simply referred to the Junior Ranks mess) are where cadets socialize.  Cadets may use the armouries, however they are not permitted in the mess, as they are drinking establishments.  5th you continue to go on about cadets, and recruits, even though the accused was neither."

 

[The Bread Guy]

Well done - we'll see how long it takes to change the story.

 

[gun runner]

This has to be the most grossly reported story that i have ever read. And the scary part is that people out there DO NOT know the difference! How will little Tommy or Sally's parents react to this story after reading that cadets are drinking in mess halls at these armouries? I know it all a misrepresentation, but this story could have much dire effects on both the Canadian Forces, and the Cadet program as well, for a forseeable time to come. For shame. Ubique

 

[Blackadder1916]

This has to be the most grossly reported story that i have ever read. And the scary part is that people out there DO NOT know the difference! How will little Tommy or Sally's parents react to this story after reading that cadets are drinking in mess halls at these armouries? I know it all a misrepresentation, but this story could have much dire effects on both the Canadian Forces, and the Cadet program as well, for a forseeable time to come. For shame. Ubique

Oh, there have been much worse stories with a military slant that didn't spell doom for the CF.  While it is a poorly researched and written piece, I wouldn't put it in the category of "misrepresentation" (that has a connotation of deliberately and knowingly passing false information).  I doubt that the reporter is a "liar", (IMO) she's just not too bright. 

As to the "dire" consequences of this story, how widespread is it, really?  While this "local" story may have some minor effect in the GTA, does it really have legs?  That it comes to notice on this means is understandable due to the military-centric leanings of most on these forums, but how does it play in the Toronto area.  Though the Star is a major daily in that area, it (the paper) doesn't get widely outside its normal circulation area.  And without seeing how this story is placed in the paper, it is hard to determine the editorial importance given it.  None of the other stories (from a google search) related to this incident (which happened a week ago) make mention of the closure of the messes though he is identified in some as a CF reservist and there was a small comment made in one piece that, so far, there has been no connection made between this incident and drinking in the mess.  Since there is a publication ban on the proceedings it is unlikely that any details will be forthcoming until after the trial has ended.  In all likelyhood this was a follow-on piece to accompany reports of bail being granted to this person.  Though not a scientific measure of the weight of the story, this is what people are reading on The Star website:

MOST POPULAR ON THESTAR.COM
Most Read
Lawyer accepted nude dances as fee
Former Blink-182 drummer critically injured
Overnight shootings leave six in hospital
Horoscopes for Saturday, September 20
Sex charges withdrawn

As always, sex, drugs guns and rock 'n roll still the big sellers.

 

[PMedMoe]

Glaring errors aside *cringe*, what I find weird is the closure of the drinking messes due to this accident.  Can you imagine if they closed civilian bars every time there was a death involving a DUI?

 

[George Wallace]

Glaring errors aside *cringe*, what I find weird is the closure of the drinking messes due to this accident.  Can you imagine if they closed civilian bars every time there was a death involving a DUI?

Yup!  Rather "Knee Jerk" reaction on the part of some PC 'person', slamming the doors closed after the wolf has left the premises, leaving all the remaining innocents to suffer.  It is a shame that some so called leaders feel that they should treat their soldiers like children, rather than adults.   That is the best way to make them start acting like children.

 

[Kat Stevens]

There you go.  Treat me like a child, and you'll see the most ill tempered six year old you ever met in your life.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Would the response be any different, say, if there wasn't an election on?  Discuss...

Who typed that?  Not me....  Nothing to see here - moving right along.

 

[axeman]

I started at the top read the story and saw the huge mistakes made in the news story .I too wondered id was SOP to shut down every bar that has one of their customers that has a fatal  incident while DUI?  I think its a  knee jerk reaction on the side of PC  like this and while i hate to bring it up the Canadian Airbourne  Regiment  whos trying to appeas[sp]  whom as its again coming into a election year ,,, Hmmmm .. seems to me theres a throw the CF under the bus  so we can show how rightous we are  movement is afoot . # messes?  why 3  ulness  they mean  the Mens ,Snr NCO and Officers messes. all housed in the same facility . In some of the smaller regiments they operate under the same liquor license. So in fact they have  only shut one mess down in this case .

 

[dapaterson]

Or have there been other, less-publicized incidents, leading to someone to make a decision to make an example?  "If you want a mess, don't act stupid" would not be a poor lesson. I can think of at least one other recent significant incident in/around a Toronto Armoury with alcohol involved.

Note: Most armouries have a single license for the premises, including all messes. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

Would the response be any different, say, if there wasn't an election on?  Discuss...

I don't think the election would have anything to do with it.  In fact, (to me) the closure of the messes until an investigation can determine if there was any connection with the incident would be a cautious and not unexpected step , though unpopular with the soldiers.  While the messes must abide by the same liquor licensing laws as any other drinking establishment, most do not operate the same way as a commercial premises.  A commander who did not scrutinize every detail how such an incident as this may affect his command and take any steps necessary to limit the liability of the CF would be derelict in his duty.  Though rare, restrictions on the use of a mess (consumption of alcohol) have been imposed in the past due to outside incidents.

Speculating on what may or may not have happened, or how messes (individually or collectively in the past or present) do business or provide service could provide additional (and perhaps most likely misleading) information to reporters, lawyers and those who generally want to give the CF a hard time.  Perhaps there is a good reason why the judge imposed a publication ban on this case.  Maybe we should take heed and follow his example.

 

[greentoblue]

Unfortunately, the closure of the messes is a predictable response by the chain-of-command given the lingering sensitivity from the Moss Park beating.  Several years ago all the messes were closed at the Bay Street Armoury in Victoria after an altercation following a mess dinner.  (I know - the circumstances were different in each case but the time these SIRs get up the chain the little details get dropped off.)

 

[Retired AF Guy]

....... What is clear that a drunk soldier killed two innocent guys who were on their way to work.

Sorry, was John Bakai actually in uniform when the accident happened? Had he been drinking in the mess prior to getting into the car and causing the accident?  Also, as a member of the Primary Reserve was he employed in a full-time position or was he only part-time job?  If he was only part-time then what was his day-time job? Until these questions are answered I think the "drunk solider" epitaph is unwarranted. 

 

[Greymatters]

Sorry, was John Bakai actually in uniform when the accident happened? Had he been drinking in the mess prior to getting into the car and causing the accident?  Also, as a member of the Primary Reserve was he employed in a full-time position or was he only part-time job?  If he was only part-time then what was his day-time job? Until these questions are answered I think the "drunk solider" epitaph is unwarranted. 

Unfortunately, while it is very important to us whether the person was out of uniform or in uniform, to the news reporters it usually makes no difference.  Any partial relation to the military makes you 'military'. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

I think the closing of the Messes, would be due to an investigation to see if he left the Mess drunk, and drove  when this happened.

There have been many instances where a bar has been held responsible, with regard to the actions of it's patrons leaving the establishment intoxicated.  It was why messes must have bar tenders trained in Smart Serve, have the hours of the bar posted, and stipulate I.D must be shown when ordering drinks.

I am sure that this is what is happening, to ensure that the Regiment, and the CF are not found liable if they followed all the rules.

dileas

tess

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Unfortunately, while it is very important to us whether the person was out of uniform or in uniform, to the news reporters it usually makes no difference.  Any partial relation to the military makes you 'military'.   

Actually, I did a Google search and the other reports only mentioned that Bakai was in the military and that was about it. Only the The Star went into detail about him being the reserves, which unit, quotes from the PAFFO,  etc, etc.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Smart serve is a joke.

If anything drinking in the mess vice a bar serves to reduce drinking and driving.
First off buddies peers will (should) stop him from driving away. There's no strangers persay in a mess, it's much more difficult to hide in a mess then a crowded bar.
Second correct me if I'm wrong but a soldier on DND properity is held under the code of service discipline and can get hammered due to it.
Third anyone with any sort of leadership training/responsibility would be/should be in a position to stop someone from drinking and driving.

Drinking in a mess, getting drunk in a mess and being an idiot in the mess is BY FAR safer to the individual and public than someone going to a bar.

Just like at bars though, shit happens. People who have had too much to drink decide their going to drive and reaching their hand in the pocket and finding their keys they will say "Hey I'm going to piss" and they drive away. Sometimes you just can't stop that.  Establishments should be held responsible to an extent for blatently obvious cases (as well those individuals should be cut off) but people should pay the price for their own stupidity.