Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

[LanVan]

I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.
Maybe I am just “butt hurt” for losing out on a year of Spec pay while being employed in a 2IC / IC position. who wouldn’t be?
I find it rediculous that the decision to be loaded on a career course is based on “alphabetical order” and not merit.
If the units were able to express their requirements to the CM and looked out for the interests of their troops. Perhaphs there wouldn’t be people in this situation?
Merit for promotion or not, I can’t get a leaf without 5’s... even with PLQ.

 

[RCDtpr]

I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.
Maybe I am just “butt hurt” for losing out on a year of Spec pay while being employed in a 2IC / IC position. who wouldn’t be?
I find it rediculous that the decision to be loaded on a career course is based on “alphabetical order” and not merit.
If the units were able to express their requirements to the CM and looked out for the interests of their troops. Perhaphs there wouldn’t be people in this situation?
Merit for promotion or not, I can’t get a leaf without 5’s... even with PLQ.

And how do you know you’re “more deserving” than others who are loaded onto their 5s before you?  Unless that entire course comes from your det and you know for a fact you’re “more deserving” all I’ve seen here is nothing but arrogant speculation coming from you.

Also.....a QL3 calling other QL3’s his “subordinates” comes off as pretty ridiculous sounding.

You’ve got 2 years on the road and you’re whining about a leaf.

Relax, learn how to be the best patrolman you can, and quit acting so entitled.  You may have 14 years in the CAF but you don’t have 14 years in the branch....it owes you nothing.

 

[LanVan]

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[brihard]

Also.....a QL3 calling other QL3’s his “subordinates” comes off as pretty ridiculous sounding.

Why? Have we forgotten that Cpls are supposed to be NCOs? If a person has been appointed, by virtue of the authority vested in the chain of command, as a second in command of a section (shift, I guess) is it not accurate to describe those under his or her authority as 'subordinates'? As shift 2ic, if he were to issue an order to thsoe individuals, would it not be valid?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Is the Branch still giving Spec Back Pay for members that do QL5 beyond their eligibility date, or has that gone way of the Dodo?

If not, then once you're done your 5's and your Spec Pay is initiated, you'll get Back Pay from the date of your eligibility to attend QL5 to the date of your completion of QL5. So it's nothing to panic over.

Unfortunately, just like the rest of the CAF, there will always be people ahead of you, that have waited longer than you.

Just remember, anytime anyone deploys or goes on MATA/PATA, or for whatever reason can't attend the course (minimum Manning can get people pulled off too), they go to the next name on the list.

6 month wait is not a huge deal, friendo.

 

[LanVan]

Hi LunchMeat,

No the branch doesn’t back pay in cases like this anymore.
I hear what your saying however in most cases, deployment is the members choice or request. Same with Pata / Mata. The members are willingly passing up the opportunity for this course. It’s not the six month delay I’m upset about, it’s the 1 year delay. Not only does this have a significant financial impact, how am I supposed to accurately advise and mentor without the info and skills obtained on QL5?
Should mismanaging or over committing  personnel, justify delaying ones career progression?

Thanks for your input!

 

[garb811]

I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.

Maybe next time you ask a question, put all of the pertinent information into it so the answer can be shaped accordingly. So, yes, in that instance, you are eligible for a QL5 but not entitled to it.

I get where you are coming from, but you are not the only one in this situation.  You career progression is hardly being affected here though; you have been given the opportunity to work in supervisory positions, you have obviously done well and you're being promoted next APS.  Your career progression is going fine and I would argue, better than many.

Lunchmeat:  That practice was short lived and was only in the 2009-2011 timeframe or so.  It also was during the height of Afghanistan when people were being told they had to deploy, vice the current situation where people are given a choice of deployment and deferment of their QL5 or their QL5and ended when the Treasury Board notified the VCDS that he did not have the authority to authorize those waivers. 

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Maybe next time you ask a question, put all of the pertinent information into it so the answer can be shaped accordingly. So, yes, in that instance, you are eligible for a QL5 but not entitled to it.

I get where you are coming from, but you are not the only one in this situation.  You career progression is hardly being affected here though; you have been given the opportunity to work in supervisory positions, you have obviously done well and you're being promoted next APS.  Your career progression is going fine and I would argue, better than many.

Lunchmeat:  That practice was short lived and was only in the 2009-2011 timeframe or so.  It also was during the height of Afghanistan when people were being told they had to deploy, vice the current situation where people are given a choice of deployment and deferment of their QL5 or their QL5and ended when the Treasury Board notified the VCDS that he did not have the authority to authorize those waivers.

Ah, thanks

 

[blackice]

Ref: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.html#sec-204-075

204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or

the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day before the effective date of the promotion plus an amount equal to the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 minus pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
====================

In the policy above, is the effective date of the promotion the day before you enter the promotion zone or literally the day before you were promoted?

Example: A 2Lt entering the promotion zone 5 months ago without being promoted would see their pay increasing to PI 2 at $4774. When they are promoted 5 months later, would they go to Lt PI 3 at $5202 with their pay the day before being promoted being 2Lt PI 2 or the pay before they entered the promotion zone of 2Lt PI 1.

The math
=========

$4774 + (Lt PI 1 - Lt Basic ) = New Pay
$4774 + ($4843 - $4488) = $5129

$5129 is closest to $5202 (Lt PI 3) than $5021 (Lt PI 2).

Thank you.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Ref: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.html#sec-204-075

204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or

the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day before the effective date of the promotion plus an amount equal to the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 minus pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
====================

In the policy above, is the effective date of the promotion the day before you enter the promotion zone or literally the day before you were promoted?

Example: A 2Lt entering the promotion zone 5 months ago without being promoted would see their pay increasing to PI 2 at $4774. When they are promoted 5 months later, would they go to Lt PI 3 at $5202 with their pay the day before being promoted being 2Lt PI 2 or the pay before they entered the promotion zone of 2Lt PI 1.

The math
=========

$4774 + (Lt PI 1 - Lt Basic ) = New Pay
$4774 + ($4843 - $4488) = $5129

$5129 is closest to $5202 (Lt PI 3) than $5021 (Lt PI 2).

Thank you.

I'm doing this scenario right now, promoted from CWO To Capt, it is the day before your actual promotion date on your message.  EPZ is just a date that allows you to be promoted with fewer conditions.  The promotion date on your promotion message is what is used to determine your rate of pay in para 2, basically you must get a full incentive on promotion, if the closest pay incentive doesn't get you the difference between Lt0 and LT1 then you are bumped to the next incentive.

Cheers

 

[secondchance]

Having gone through the same process, I can give you my experience. All my EPZs were based off the date of the completion of my phase training. I completed Phase IV Log in Oct 00, then I was promoted to LT. I was promoted Capt in 02, the usual mandatory 2 years in rank as an LT. However, I did my phase training back to back, and there was no time awaiting training. Normally, you are only credited with the time you have awaited training, if it was considered excessive and at not fault of the member. However, when it is a COT due to failure, we aren't given much grace. You really need to consult the new regs on this, as they have changed/been reworded since my COT.

Your experience is  for people who didn't have VOT or COT.
You are right about 2 years being Lt .
But people with COT like me , we got new EZP in our COT message.

Sent from my NX591J using Tapatalk

 

[international4455]

Hi Guys how does the promotion system in the forces work for NCM's ? how far can they go ? is their a special quota for them in the officers training ? Do foot soldiers ( infantry soldiers etc ) make it to officers through step by step promotions ?

 

[BDTyre]

There are two separate streams:

NCM which goes from Private to Chief Warrant Officer
Officer which goes from Officer Cadet to General

Most will never reach the top ranks - it's just a matter of skill, career progression and dedication. Most reserve officers won't make it past LCol as you can only do so much as a part-timer and most of the jobs Colonel and above likely require full time.

CWO would usually see you being a Regimental (or Wing or Brigade, etc., etc.) Sergeant Major and normally by this point you would be close to retirement age. There is the option if you still have a few years left after being and RSM of commissioning into the officer corps as a Captain.

Can you go between? Yes. I know of a few Corporals and Master Corporals who have successfully become 2LTs, either in a different trade or  branch or in the same unit. Can you go from an officer to an NCM? Yes, but it is not as common (though I do know of one currently trying to do just that).

There are different responsibilities and expectations with each role. This is just a very brief overview and I'm sure others here can provide much more detail.

 

[mariomike]

how does the promotion system in the forces work for NCM's ? how far can they go ? is their a special quota for them in the officers training ? Do foot soldiers ( infantry soldiers etc ) make it to officers through step by step promotions ?

For reference to the discussion,

NCM to Officer ( merged )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/45209.25.html
3 pages.

Worth achieving higher NCM rank before going officer?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/87609.0
3 pages.

Promotions
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ACYBGNT7OyQTg4zYirsIGI_Uj3mowRrFew%3A1569432387646&ei=Q6OLXbz0JquQ_QbbrLNw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+promotion&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+promotion&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1868.1868..2753...0.2..0.95.95.1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.1cYFgZkW2vk&ved=0ahUKEwj8odufv-zkAhUrSN8KHVvWDA4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1569432392569


Career Progression
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ACYBGNQnNNQCDvYUR_LD155fPQCYMIvLUQ%3A1569432240196&ei=sKKLXcm_C-uI_QaEmYWYDw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22career+progression%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22career+progression%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...13210.15958..18249...0.0..0.94.180.2......0....1..gws-wiz.VBNbZ91QSIM&ved=0ahUKEwjJ17PZvuzkAhVrRN8KHYRMAfMQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569432260647

For Reservists,

Reserve NCM to Reserve Officer 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105901.0
2 pages.

 

[stoker dave]

I would like to add that another variable that affects promotion is the number of people at one particular level and the number of available spots at the next level. 

I was part of a large recruiting drive for stokers.  Someone looked in their crystal ball and said that in 10 years there would be a need for a huge number.  All through my training I was with a really large group.  Well, ten years later the anticipated demand never occurred and suddenly there were far more trained people than DND considered necessary.  There was very little opportunity for promotion.  Indeed, there was a "force reduction program" to encourage people to leave. 

I left (the lack of promotion opportunities was just one reason).

So this type of situation, which is entirely beyond your control, can occur and, if it does, significantly impacts your career aspirations.