"Why I preferred the Navy, from a culture POV."

[Navy_Pete]

So what about the traditionally deep hatred of the 'Lower Decks' for MARS/NWO Officers?

I was impressed by the depth of feeling there talking to a few ratings in the past, some of whom left the CAF becasue the awful leadership

One ship returned from deployment and had 30% of the crew submit their release. Pretty sure the CO and XO later got leadership commendations from CJOC as the boilerplate give aways, but was entirely responsible for that.

On the flip side lots of people came out of the woodwork for Adm Norman when he got charged, so good leadership is also recognized.

I imagine the same thing happens in army lines, where a bad CO that thinks they are God in CADPAT will drive a lot of people out.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One ship returned from deployment and had 30% of the crew submit their release. Pretty sure the CO and XO later got leadership commendations from CJOC as the boilerplate give aways, but was entirely responsible for that.

On the flip side lots of people came out of the woodwork for Adm Norman when he got charged, so good leadership is also recognized.

I imagine the same thing happens in army lines, where a bad CO that thinks they are God in CADPAT will drive a lot of people out and will sometimes be richly rewarded and promoted well beyond their levels of competence.

There, FTFY

 

[Navy_Pete]

There, FTFY

lol, not wrong in the Navy side either, both those folks have had several promotions since, and still a nightmare to work with.

360 reviews can be abused, but some cases would highlight people that are loved from aboved, and despised by peers and subordinates. There is a small but pretty firm list of people that I never want to work with/for in any capacity who fit that description, but seem to be skilled at blowing smoke upwards.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One ship returned from deployment and had 30% of the crew submit their release. Pretty sure the CO and XO later got leadership commendations from CJOC as the boilerplate give aways, but was entirely responsible for that.

On the flip side lots of people came out of the woodwork for Adm Norman when he got charged, so good leadership is also recognized.

I imagine the same thing happens in army lines, where a bad CO that thinks they are God in CADPAT will drive a lot of people out.

I think I know the ship, trip and crew you're talking about. The Cox'n, who was also part of the problem, went on to bigger and better things also.

What do we expect when the command triad is only inserted to take a ship through BSSRTS, IMSSRTs ect and the deployment and switched out 3 days after coming home ?

What vested interest do you have in the lives of the people you will really only command for 18 months if you're lucky ? We have a broken process in command development. Its needs to slow down and have hard and fast time length requirements.

Don't forget CJOC already knows who is getting what for awards and decorations before the deployment begins.

 

[TacticalTea]

Let's not kid ourselves, it's neither uncommon or unexpected.

Young folks sharing common spaces and experiences for many weeks and months...

What vested interest do you have in the lives of the people you will really only command for 18 months if you're lucky ? We have a broken process in command development. Its needs to slow down and have hard and fast time length requirements.

Do you mean for that case specifically or has that become the norm? I'm used to seeing regular posting lengths. I do think it could be useful to have longer commands. But people smarter and better paid than me seem to think not so

 

[Lumber]

Let's not kid ourselves, it's neither uncommon or unexpected.

Young folks sharing common spaces and experiences for many weeks and months...


Do you mean for that case specifically or has that become the norm? I'm used to seeing regular posting lengths. I do think it could be useful to have longer commands. But people smarter and better paid than me seem to think not so

The basic sequence goes like this.

Ship comes back from deployment. New CO, XO and Coxn come in along with a +50% crew turnover (and like a 90% officer turn over).

The "new" CO and crew spend the next 6 months to 12 months working up, then deploy for 6 months.

Then the whole crew goes on leave for ~2 months, during which time... a new CO, XO, Coxn, come in, along with a +50% crew turnover.

Rinse and repeat.

My CO was there for 18 months. His replacement was here for about 4-5 months, and his replacement will likely turn over this summer after about 12 months.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The basic sequence goes like this.

Ship comes back from deployment. New CO, XO and Coxn come in along with a +50% crew turnover (and like a 90% officer turn over).

The "new" CO and crew spend the next 6 months to 12 months working up, then deploy for 6 months.

Then the whole crew goes on leave for ~2 months, during which time... a new CO, XO, Coxn, come in, along with a +50% crew turnover.

Rinse and repeat.

My CO was there for 18 months. His replacement was here for about 4-5 months, and his replacement will likely turn over this summer after about 12 months.

Generally in agreement. But that +50% crew turn over is overly optimistic.

That might be for C&POs but the lower you go the more of them stay.

Let's not kid ourselves, it's neither uncommon or unexpected.

Young folks sharing common spaces and experiences for many weeks and months...

I know.

 

[TacticalTea]

The basic sequence goes like this.

Ship comes back from deployment. New CO, XO and Coxn come in along with a +50% crew turnover (and like a 90% officer turn over).

The "new" CO and crew spend the next 6 months to 12 months working up, then deploy for 6 months.

Then the whole crew goes on leave for ~2 months, during which time... a new CO, XO, Coxn, come in, along with a +50% crew turnover.

Rinse and repeat.

My CO was there for 18 months. His replacement was here for about 4-5 months, and his replacement will likely turn over this summer after about 12 months.

Sounds unsustainable. Why are we doing this?

Frankly that has not been my experience in the Navy - across a multitude of ships and classes -, so I am actually surprised you'd describe that as the basic sequence.

How recent is that MO?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sounds unsustainable. Why are we doing this?

Frankly that has not been my experience in the Navy - across a multitude of ships and classes -, so I am actually surprised you'd describe that as the basic sequence.

How recent is that MO?

Crew swaps has been becoming more and more common as we run out of platforms that are actually semi-capable.

Look at how often deployed ships on the east coast have taken turns as a deployed ship, gets replaced, and then comes back as the replacement. In some cases it was actually a 100% crew swap.

Also looking at that option to do extended deployment, where you'd swap the crew overseas and stay gone for a year or more (with a deep maintenance period somewhere in there). But given we can't send over any engineering support for a 2 week maintenance period, and expect SS to figure out the work packages themselves, I doubt we would do it properly.

@Halifax Tar, good point. I guess as long as we continue to promote people who behave like arseholes it will keep going. I'm cautiously optimistic that people losing command appointments will at least help curb some of the sex pest abuse of power.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Crew swaps has been becoming more and more common as we run out of platforms that are actually semi-capable.

Look at how often deployed ships on the east coast have taken turns as a deployed ship, gets replaced, and then comes back as the replacement. In some cases it was actually a 100% crew swap.

Also looking at that option to do extended deployment, where you'd swap the crew overseas and stay gone for a year or more (with a deep maintenance period somewhere in there). But given we can't send over any engineering support for a 2 week maintenance period, and expect SS to figure out the work packages themselves, I doubt we would do it properly.

@Halifax Tar, good point. I guess as long as we continue to promote people who behave like arseholes it will keep going. I'm cautiously optimistic that people losing command appointments will at least help curb some of the sex pest abuse of power.

I have often thought the RCN should work with the Greeks and Yanks to set up a Log/Eng Hub in Souda Bay, and keep a CPF on station there while rotating crews in and out.

Get some space here:

Commander, Navy Region Europe, Africa, Central > Installations > NSA Souda Bay > About

 

[Navy_Pete]

I have often thought the RCN should work with the Greeks and Yanks to set up a Log/Eng Hub in Souda Bay, and keep a CPF on station there while rotating crews in and out.

I loved stopping in Souda bay; fuel was no problem and we could get JP5, so it was just a really easy alongside and the MSED would get everything done day 1.

Plus anytime we needed something fixed, the base was already used to the N.A standards from the USN, so was really easy to get things like HP air pipe and other safety systems fixed properly to our standard.

Crete is beautiful, food is great, people are nice, place is safe, and it's all very affordable. Lots to do so even after stopping a few times I never got everything on my list done.

Not sure about capacity to do major repairs in Souda bay, but Toulon is another really good option, and there are a few major ports in the area that would be good for that as well.

We used to do much more ambitious repairs in the Gulf, but you'd get a TAV support to do the planning/contracting before you arrived, with the right expertise to help supervise that stuff. Honestly that would be an awesome CFTPO to spend a few weeks ahead of the port visit coordinating everything, then a few weeks running the work period, but way beyond capability of the standard FLS.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG does full crew swaps every 28 days, hand over is about 2hrs long.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I loved stopping in Souda bay; fuel was no problem and we could get JP5, so it was just a really easy alongside and the MSED would get everything done day 1.

Plus anytime we needed something fixed, the base was already used to the N.A standards from the USN, so was really easy to get things like HP air pipe and other safety systems fixed properly to our standard.

Crete is beautiful, food is great, people are nice, place is safe, and it's all very affordable. Lots to do so even after stopping a few times I never got everything on my list done.

Not sure about capacity to do major repairs in Souda bay, but Toulon is another really good option, and there are a few major ports in the area that would be good for that as well.

We used to do much more ambitious repairs in the Gulf, but you'd get a TAV support to do the planning/contracting before you arrived, with the right expertise to help supervise that stuff. Honestly that would be an awesome CFTPO to spend a few weeks ahead of the port visit coordinating everything, then a few weeks running the work period, but way beyond capability of the standard FLS.

Souda Bay, lacks a synchro lift and dry dock as far as I know. But you can do everything else.

The NATO jetty's are huge and in awesome shape. Sustainment isn't a big issue as the NAS is right there for fly in support.

 

[Halifax Tar]

@Halifax Tar, good point. I guess as long as we continue to promote people who behave like arseholes it will keep going. I'm cautiously optimistic that people losing command appointments will at least help curb some of the sex pest abuse of power.

We will get better leadership and command when better leadership and command is expected and enforced.

 

[Eaglelord17]

On the flip side lots of people came out of the woodwork for Adm Norman when he got charged, so good leadership is also recognized.

Lots of people were also cheering on the sidelines as that man had a strong hand in killing naval tradition (taking drinking off the ships) and was also one of those who if sailing in the modern fleet would have been responsible for many releases.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Lots of people were also cheering on the sidelines as that man had a strong hand in killing naval tradition (taking drinking off the ships) and was also one of those who if sailing in the modern fleet would have been responsible for many releases.

He was my CO on St Johns. He drove a hard ship, and was a stern and demanding commander. He expected strict discipline and acted swiftly to correct any transgressions. I will never forget hearing the pipe "secure, the brow is not open". He definitely left an imprint on the RCN, but in the end he went down swinging in defence of it. And for that alone, he has my respect.

He's more Landymore than what we have seen in a long time and what we will probably see coming up.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Lots of people were also cheering on the sidelines as that man had a strong hand in killing naval tradition (taking drinking off the ships) and was also one of those who if sailing in the modern fleet would have been responsible for many releases.

In real terms very few people were ever able to actually drink at sea, and the large shift with Martech trade going 1 in 2 got rid of a lot of dayworkers.

But with the reduced crews and our rates of fires/floods keeping that would have been asking for a disaster, and frankly that whole tradition was incompatible with larger changes in the CAF.

Didn't have any noticeable effect on drinking in foreign ports, and frankly when we're shorthanded anyone drunk at sea is a massive liability.

I think it was the right decision, and with the increasing pandering to 'QoL' over basic safety or combat effectiveness someone who would make unpopular decisions like that for the right reason would be a breath of fresh air.

We now have all kinds of things on the CPFs that wouldn't be allowed for basic safety reasons on a fishing boat or cruise ship, while sailing around below basic standards for the same fishing boat and deploying ships like that. Hard to take someone seriously as a warfighter when wood paneling that would make a 16th century Lord blush, wifi, arcade machines and all sorts of other stupidity takes precedence over basic safety systems or real combat capabilities. The RCN is turning into a bunch of really shit, unsafe cruise ships and are glass cannons at best.

 

[Mick]

He was my CO on St Johns. He drove a hard ship, and was a stern and demanding commander. He expected strict discipline and acted swiftly to correct any transgressions. I will never forget hearing the pipe "secure, the brow is not open".

Just curious if you could explain the significance of this pipe, and if there's a good story behind it?

My only (favourable) impression of VAdm Norman is based on coverage of his legal fight.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just curious if you could explain the significance of this pipe, and if there's a good story behind it?

My only (favourable) impression of VAdm Norman is based on coverage of his legal fight.

That's the pipe that ends the work day and the sailors, unless otherwise tasked, are free to go ashore. Except that one had the brow is not open, which meant we were done work, but were confined to the ship.

That's was in Faslane, Scotland.

 

[Eaglelord17]

In real terms very few people were ever able to actually drink at sea, and the large shift with Martech trade going 1 in 2 got rid of a lot of dayworkers.

But with the reduced crews and our rates of fires/floods keeping that would have been asking for a disaster, and frankly that whole tradition was incompatible with larger changes in the CAF.

Didn't have any noticeable effect on drinking in foreign ports, and frankly when we're shorthanded anyone drunk at sea is a massive liability.

I think it was the right decision, and with the increasing pandering to 'QoL' over basic safety or combat effectiveness someone who would make unpopular decisions like that for the right reason would be a breath of fresh air.

We now have all kinds of things on the CPFs that wouldn't be allowed for basic safety reasons on a fishing boat or cruise ship, while sailing around below basic standards for the same fishing boat and deploying ships like that. Hard to take someone seriously as a warfighter when wood paneling that would make a 16th century Lord blush, wifi, arcade machines and all sorts of other stupidity takes precedence over basic safety systems or real combat capabilities. The RCN is turning into a bunch of really shit, unsafe cruise ships and are glass cannons at best.

I agree most people didn’t drink at sea, we were all pretty responsible in regards to it. It did have a significant effect on us drinking in foreign ports and parties on the ship as it significantly changed the prices from a dollar a shot or beer to whatever it is now.

The same time they did it they chose to restrict us all to two drinks a day in foreign port, which I hope has been removed.

It might not be important to you, but to many of us it was. Considering it wasn’t being abused and we weren’t having issues related to it, it was a political statement disguised as being something good for us. I put my release in from the Navy a week after that decision, no regrets on that part and one of the best decisions of my life.

That meeting in the hanger is one I will never forget, I have never heard a group of two hundred people so silent, you could physically feel the anger.

All for a ‘modern’ navy. From the sounds of it, all that isn’t working out too well.